In 1984 I entered into kindergarten. In my recollection, I was kind of a shy kid when it came to being away from my parents. My mom probably thinks I was a terror handful, but I remember feeling very insecure as a young child. I’m not really sure why though. Anyway, I enter kindergarten and my life changed because of a very special person – Mrs. Spoleman. Up until a couple days ago, I hadn’t really thought about this special women, but I can’t express how much I loved her and recognize how much she impacted my life.
Mrs. Spoleman made me feel alive. I don’t really know what it was about her or the environment she fostered, but I really sensed that I had the freedom to learn and to grow and to try new things, even if it meant failing. Some years later I had a teacher who encompassed the opposite of every single one of these characteristics. He neither encouraged his students to try new things nor did he create the type of atmosphere that encouraged growth or learning. His teaching methods would more than likely consist of every method that we are taught not to do. I’m sure most of you have had teachers that fall into one of these two categories. What set Mrs. Spoleman apart from all of my other teachers was that she encouraged her students to take risks.
Taking Risks Keeps Us Dependent Upon God!
Throughout the Scriptures we find narrative after narrative of men and women taking risks before God. Now, before I give you some examples, let it be known that I thoroughly reject any theological presupposition that states that God Himself takes risks. Several theologians have suggested that God Himself takes risks and is somewhat subject to His creation yet I find numerous biblical, philosophical, and practical issues with this concept. But the fact that many of the greatest stories of the OT and NT are about risk-takers is something we can’t quickly gloss over. For instance…
Abraham – In Gen. 12 we read that Abraham was told by God to leave everything behind. He was to leave his country, his family, and his material wealth behind him. Abraham was to take a risk at exercising faith, which the writer of Hebrews makes special note of (cf. Heb. 11:8-19). Abraham was a risk taker.
Moses – Now Moses didn’t always take risks quite as ‘trusting’ as others. We find evidence of this throughout the exodus narrative. When the Lord called for Moses to confront Pharaoh and lead the Hebrew people out of Egypt and into the Promised Land, Moses found numerous excuses to keep him from obeying God’s command (cf. Ex. 3-4). Yet we also can see that Moses still took some significant risks in his approach of Pharaoh and his leading of his people out of Egypt. Moses was a risk taker.
Joshua – As the children of God were leaving the wilderness and entering into the Promised Land, Joshua was commissioned to lead the way. Throughout the book of Joshua we see event after event where Joshua took risks as he and his household served the Lord (Josh. 24:15). Joshua was a risk taker.
Peter – Our beloved Peter started out a bit rocky but slowly, by the grace of God, became such a wonderful example of risk taking for the glory of God. Sure, Peter lacked the faith to walk on water, but who else took the risk of jumping out of a boat to go see Jesus? Sure, Peter denied Jesus three times, but who else took the risk of actually going into the court yard? Deep within Peter’s heart was a desire for greatness and the glory of God. Peter just often confused the two! But make no mistakes, Peter was a risk taker.
And throughout the rest of the NT we read example after example of the early Christians taking risk after risk for the glory of God. Paul took risks for the sake of the Gospel and covered most of the known world of the Roman Empire. The apostle John took risks for the glory of Christ until he became a political outcast and was imprisoned on the island of Patmos. Timid Timothy went to Ephesus as an apostolic delegate and took a risk in leading people older than himself in the midst of many false teachers. The list goes on, and on.
Taking Risks Within the Community of Believers
There’s one text of Scripture that clearly calls for Christians to take risks within the congregational setting. It’s written by James, the brother of Jesus and one of the leaders of the church in Jerusalem. He writes,
“Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.” – James 5:13-16 ESV
Those who are suffering and sick must take risks by approaching the leadership and/or the congregation for prayer! James is not only expressing that this was normal in the early apostolic communities, but it should remain that way! So there is no reason not to ask for prayer regarding practical prayer needs (e.g., sickness, family issues, etc.).
On a side note, you’ll notice that James says that if there is sin causing the sickness, it will be forgiven. James does not say that all sin is a result of sickness. This strongly calls into question the teaching of the “health/wealth” gospel.
Nevertheless, if someone has a need, they need to take a risk and ask for prayer!
Why Should We Take Risks?
There are numerous reasons that I could give to encourage you to take risks for the glory of Christ, but I’ll simply suggest two that motivate me…
First, it is evidence of faith. Taking risks is, in a sense, a way that we can express that we trust God and His Word to be true. Obviously God knows everything but the Scriptures also indicate that faith is something that we demonstrate by our actions. Faith without action is a waste of time, so says James!
Secondly, and perhaps the most important for me, the primary motivation for taking risks is the role that the Holy Spirit plays in the lives of Christians. Time and time again the Scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit is our helper and the person who empowers our ministry (cf. John 14-16; Acts 1:8; 1 Cor. 12-14). And since we are to constantly seek the filling of the Holy Spirit I find it just as practical to constantly be looking for opportunities to take risks for the glory of Christ.
For example, I’m seeking the Lord to give me more boldness so that I can take risks when I sense the Lord desires for me to say certain things to certain people, to pray for certain things or certain people, and to do certain things at certain times. I am, more or less, wanting to be a risk taker for God’s glory, and not my own. And since taking risks keeps us dependent upon God, He alone should get the glory!
And yes, the audio for this sermon is here.
Luke is a pastor-theologian living in northern California, serving as a co-lead pastor with his life, Dawn, at the Red Bluff Vineyard. Father of five amazing kids, when Luke isn’t hanging with his family, reading or writing theology, he moonlights as a fly fishing guide for Confluence Outfitters. He blogs regularly at LukeGeraty.com and regularly contributes to his YouTube channel.
good point. keeping ourselves focused on trusting god is sometimes hard but if we take risks i guess it’s probably easier, huh?
lately i’ve been feeling like this too. i think i play it safe a lot and i’m pretty sure this is only because i’m lazy when it comes to REALLY trusting god. i’m not sure how to get out of this slump because i don’t even know how to begin trusting god enough to take risks. what risks should i take? does it mean i should be wierd and flaky or are there ways to take risks that are ordinary?
i am probably more like moses than anyone else. i fight god on everything and then miss opportunities.
I really struggle with knowing how to respond to the last two posts you’ve made Luke. In my tradition, it is quite abnormal to either “take risks” or to “pour out your heart” in the emotional sense.
We Presbyterians like to keep our emotions in control and we never take risks outside of the Westminster Divines! I’m obviously exaggerating a bit, but the truth isn’t far from it 🙂
To be honest, I’m just speechless when it comes to taking risks in the way that you describe. I really can’t think of the last time I “exercised faith” in this way. I trust God with all my heart, but I haven’t had to prove that in any significant ways.
I just noticed this is filed under “Charismatic Issues” which means I take back everything I previous said 😉
Luke, your sermon also reminded me of the quote from William Carey, the missionary leader to India: Expect great things from God; attempt great things for God .
Good sermon, but I’m not sure that I agree with you. What made Mrs. Spoleman a great teacher was not that she encouraged you to take risks: even the bad teacher did that. The difference was that she made taking risks safe. Richard Mouw said something similar in a talk I heard recently, in regard to the point from the Heidelberg Catechism That I with body and soul, both in life and death, am not my own, but belong unto my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ… “If you belong to yourself, your future is yours to worry about. If you belong to God, your future is His.” If we believe in a sovereign God who is capable of working out everything according to His purpose (Eph 1:11), we no longer face risks alone — we act safely within His will, and it comes with a money-back guarantee (Eph 1:14)!
I see two Biblical examples of this. The first was the change in the apostle Peter that you mentioned. Peter before the resurrection was “Mr. Wishy-Washy”; after, he speaks with courage and conviction (i.e. Acts 4:13, 18) I caught the same spirit in the words of a movie character soon to die from cancer: “What are they going to do? Throw me in jail? Somehow, that doesn’t scare me.” Peter knew that, at their worst, the opposition could kill him, but he also knew that Jesus holds power over the grave.
The second example shows that we don’t trust in the results, but in God. Daniel 3: 17-18 tells the response of Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah (a/k/a Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego): God might or He might not. Either way, we are not at risk. We are not in danger here. (Dan 3: 16) We don’t need to defend ourselves. God will.
Now, I’m not saying that this means we can’t see things as risky from our side of eternity, or that we drive without seat belts and leave the mayo out all day. What it means is that God — like Mrs. Spoleman — has made the risk safe.
Tony – I’m not really sure how to “get out of the slump” so to speak. I can simply suggest that you trust God in areas that may have previously been a bit difficult to trust Him in (e.g., evangelism, prayer for healing, etc.). Actually, I’d encourage you to pray and ask the Lord for Him to show you ways in which you can step out and take risks in!
Jholmes – Charismatics take risks all the time… he he, deal with it!
Michael – I am unsure of what you actually disagree with because I think we’re saying the same thing 🙂 At least, I would agree with everything you said 🙂
Although perhaps our perspectives are somewhat different. As followers of Jesus, we often do not see things the way God sees things, which is the point that the author of Hebrews is making in chapter 11. Even though the great heroes of faith didn’t always get what they hoped for, they still had faith in God! So, our focus as followers of Jesus should be more on trusting God and less on the appearances!
Also, the second teacher that I’m referring to did not allow risk taking! He taught in what is referred to within social theory as the “Bound Set Theory” of human interaction. No risk taking, no growth, no challenge. Sit down and shut up! The atmosphere was not typical of any learning environment that I’ve ever been in, that’s for sure.
Great point though regarding the atmosphere that Mrs. Spoleman created. It was certainly not just a place where risk taking was encouraged! It was absolutely save to take risks! Excellent observation.
I think that was my point about mentioning her… I think… ha ha.
This really encourages me! I’m rather shy in public worship services but have recently been taking the initiative to minister to people that I can see are hurting or in need of encouragement. In the past, I would have wanted to do it but would have been to shy to actually talk to them. Maybe my faith is growing!
I think one thing you are all missing here is that most of the men you suggested in Scripture had been told what to do or had clear instruction. Abraham took a risk with Hagar. How well did that work out? There is a difference between taking a risk on a Word you have received from the Lord and just going out and trying to accomplish something for the Lord on your own(we like to call this a Hagar or an Ismail take your pick). True risk taking in Faith is stepping out on a Word you have received from the Lord even when it doesn’t make sense or seems impossible.
keylokd, great point. That would simply fall in line with “unto the Lord,” right? Perhaps our (my) assumption is that people would take risks “unto the Lord,” meaning that it would line up with what God has called us to do/be.
Yet I think there’s more to be added. At times we “take risks” when we do “kingdom stuff” such as evangelize or exercise spiritual gifts (e.g., prophecy) because we aren’t always 100% sure of what God’s exact specific will is in every situation. This is not to minimize the Word of God but to suggest that we have to constantly listen to the leading of the Spirit and, in essence, take a step of faith (i.e., “take a risk”) to do what we sense the Lord is leading.
This is a genius statement. I love it. Thank you for that.
I think that is also what I’m trying to get at 🙂 Keyword: trying.
🙂
Faith spells “R-I-S-K” and what I believe is that what we might perceive as a failed step of faith is more about looking beyond this world. The outcome of risk that we take to act upon a direction from God might be fulfilled in the future coming kingdom. The scriptures are full of promises that are going to be fulfilled when the fullness of the kingdom arrives. Risk taking is about faith and trust in the One who we live for. He is working everything together for His glory, even our failures because in our humility and weakness He is glorified.
I think taking risks as God calls us to is really being willing to be stretched by a loving God who wants us to grow in Him. Luke, I agree with keylokd, you sound more like we have to do more for God, lets go do stuff,….
How do you know we aren’t? Because we arent doing what you think we ought to? I hear from God and I like His authority and freedom in my life to say no or say yes when people want me to do things. The examples you used were specific people God asked to do specific things. That is happening to day, and has always happened, just not always on arc scales. Sometimes, though, what seems small to you, like a row boat , is an arc to one of God’s kids. Who are we to judge? Hey, what is up with that row boat? Go build an arc you wussy! …I mean, come on! Each person has their own issues, God will stretch us to grow us. Sometimes God will call us to do great things.
Often, the “great” thing, is NOT muttering and being rude to people when they are shopping at a humble thrift sale. Its being kind and polite to them, when you are helping out, or just standing there. Sometimes a great thing, is getting back in church, when most of what they do there is condemn you and force you to jump through seal hoops or act like a trained pony. If its true that we can be free in worship, then so be it!!! I didnt see that at all where I was this weekend. It was the worst part of my whole week, and i was in a great mood that morning, before and after church….messing with a garden. You know, such stupid worldly stuff….What I got in church was a sound emotional beating because I am lousy and selfish and don’t act and do what someone else is telling me to do, …I had no sense whatsoever that God wanted me to just be a pony, ….maybe a new approach or a new church is in order. I will be challenged, and convicted, but I wont go get beat up by fools and goofy ideas, and condemnation. Legalism from the other end, it sucks as much.
Maybe God uses planting a garden to stretch a person and teach them things. I know after this weekend, for sure, I am going to really try hard to remember that, because I know I would love to just roll up church into a wad and chuck it all, but the people, some individually, that Im gettin to know, I am loving….too bad none of that seems to show up really, in these so called free to be yourself services. Maybe its because I AM totally depraved and horrible,…and need to keep going, because its not a good “fit”, who knows. If that kindergarten teacher cultivated a garden of learning that was incredibly positive, I sure wish THAT would be the desire of a church I go to, not just one where I am told Im selfish, don’t do anything for God. and I better get up and get on their band wagon, even though God seems to have plenty for me to do already and I don’t get the impression from God that I suck. Ahhh…being stretched….what a good thing!When it comes from God, and not man.
wow! It sounds to me like you possibly really had a rather different take on just about everything you experienced! And, I might add, a very narrow interpretation of 100% of everything too 🙂
I have always found it extremely interesting how one person is really challenged or ministered to or encouraged and another person has nothing but the opposite feelings!
But I am quite convinced that 99% of the time it really boils down to misunderstandings, miscommunications, and presuppositions – all wrapped up together!
There is more I could write, but I will leave it for a future time as I need to go drink some crush!
I know I had an accurate take on what I heard, and if what was intended wasn’t what was said, then perhaps the gap between well meaning people who are offensive and truth and love and grace needs to be bridged. I don’t respect people who don’t respect boundaries. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free, but that freedom for us came at a great cost to Jesus, ….If I felt something was wrong, and you disagree…..my feelings on that point are still 100% valid. Book smarts and big words are great, and so is a great big heart, but letting a lack of experience make a person cocky toward another to push an agenda, then I think God’s intentions aren’t going to come across at all. Do we take the risk of saying when we are offended by people who abuse their opportunity in church , and I don;t mean the pastor alone, because I have great leadership most of the time, but when there is a big overstepping and the boat is totally missed, then hey! Guess what? You will hear about it. I didn’t come OUT of lousy authority to let someone ELSE feel they can go for it now. I also know we all get zealous, like me right now, so I am going to try to temper some of that, and “season my words” as a friend put it, so I’m not just beating anyone who I think crosses lines they shouldnt, but I will wave that stick around so they back up and get back over onto their own space. and if you want a crush break, let me know! we all could go and hang out and have a crush break!
(I have a feeling that this is going to be a windy posting, so I’ll apologize in advance. 🙂 ) I heard a great comment recently while sitting in on oral seminary student exams. The questioner said that the role of the preacher is to “comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable” and asked one student how he would find that balance. Since I’m part of a group trying to make my church more welcoming to our community, I was taken by that question and have been thinking about it a lot recently. I see that same issue being raised here.
I haven’t heard the sermon audio (post! post! post!), so I can’t speak directly to Sunday. I completely agree with Ivorykmaguire28 in general, though. She is right that, as the Body, we have too often fallen into choosing action over attitude, uniformity over unity, commonality over allowing God to lead. I’m not referring to matters of sin (1 Thessalonians 5:21-22): we should oppose and confront sin in others lives and confess it and repent in our own. What happens though, is that we sometimes treat all of our differences in the same way. So, taking my own point, let me change the voice of this post. Rather than speaking for everyone else, let me speak from my experience and how God has worked in my heart.
It gets very easy to expect everyone to worship the same way I do, to get annoyed when someone yells and interrupts while God is speaking to me quietly. Or, feeling frustrated when God is moving in an incredible way some morning and no one else seems to be responding with the same joy I feel. Or, when God has called me to a ministry role and no one seems interested in joining me, I ask “what’s wrong with these people?” I expect that if God is working on an area in my life that He must be doing the same with everyone else. I’ve probably done this a thousand different ways, essentially trying to do the Holy Spirit’s job of motivating everyone else. Like Ivory, I also have days I’d “love to just roll up church into a wad and chuck it all”; I’ve just learned to phrase that more delicately. “Worship was a little flat this morning, wasn’t it. What was up with the praise band?” “Pastor sure picked an odd passage to talk about.” “Why couldn’t Ann’s kids wait until after service to argue about the Nintendo?” I mutter and complain, I’m rude, I demean their thoughts, I question their value, I expect them to do what I want when I want, if they are “real” Christians. I have excuses, of course, but God has a different term for this.
He calls it sin, plain and simple.
I sin against my fellow worshiper when I do this and God gets pretty annoyed with this. I might be well-meaning, but still wrong. Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church put this really well. In his series on 1&2 Peter, he reminds us not to be the cause of suffering for other believers (partially from 2 Thes 1:6 NIV, I think). Jesus identifies with our suffering, so when we cause (or fail to help relieve) suffering in others, we do this to Jesus (Matthew 25:45). God takes the treatment of His Body very personally. When I stay silent when God calls me to remind someone of His love, or bark out commands they “must obey” when He may be working quietly to change someone’s heart, I not only leave them in pain, I offend God.
Now, I don’t want this so sound like I’m just picking on Luke, just because he was up front preaching. The real ministry of the church doesn’t happen in an hour on Sunday — that would be like claiming that the only time that my portable power tools are useful is when they are on the charger. Jesus called us all to “love one another”, not just the pastor. Mark Driscoll had another great quote from C. H. Spurgeon: “Criticism and suffering are like bee stings: one is bad and a swarm is a real problem.” Our world is already swarming with things that sting us and tear us apart: the Body is supposed to be the understanding, safe zone. This is a great thread to hold this discussion, because I believe this is one additional way God is calling us to get over ourselves and let Him work though us. In the terms we’ve been using here, He wants us to risk bringing His love to a world that needs it — starting in the chair next to us on Sunday. And the desk next to us on Monday. And the guy across the street on Tuesday night.
I don’t know what God is tugging your heart to do. Right now, I know what’s He’s working on in me and I’m a slow learner, so I need to get started. (And, bummer, I have no Orange Crush!!!)
I certainly appreciate everyone’s opinions. I don’t really know if it is worth it, for me, to respond to some of the things that have been stated because it is quite clear that emotions are running rather thick. I sanse that only because some major judgments and conclusions have been made with, in my opinion, very little truth. This is not to say that feelings and emotions are valid, as was assumed. It is simply to say that the way that we feel isn’t always true. It’s true for us, but not always true of the situation. Five sisters, three daughters, one wife, and a great mom have all taught me that 🙂
Yet I can say that I would be the first to say that I (we) don’t always communicate the best and we can certainly miscommunicate things. Though our intentions can be 100% pure, our methods or approaches can miss it. But in this case, though I’m sorry that anyone would feel negatively, I believe I shared what the Lord had led me to share. I can’t please everyone and I certainly will not pander to people in the sense that I forsake what God leads me to do or say. Do I do this perfectly? Absolutely not. But I still would stand by what I shared on Sunday because I believe it was a word from the Lord for our Church. Of course, not everyone who comes on Sunday is (a) following Jesus or (b) an actual member of our community, so it is often difficult to reach such a wide diversity of people!
But I’m thankful that a few other people felt the word was 100% for them and really challenged them. It is certainly possible that they (we) are all deceived, but I certainly hope and pray not!
Anyway, I say these things only knowing my own heart… I can’t speak for everyone else. In all of my life I have never been accused of trying to manipulate people, so that’s certainly a new one. I guess there is nothing new under the sun. I still find it really wierd/cool/interesting/funny/upsetting how people can absolutely love something and sense the Spirit speaking and others can think it was demonic.
Which is why church is so fun for me… 🙂
Hope you folks have a great day and can continue to converse on the subject and all that! Blessings!
yeah luke get that sermon online so we can take it apart, grade it, and tell u where u went wrong! geez, hurry up wiht that.
Actually, Tony, I was just hoping to hear Luke’s message, not whack him a little harder. (I know, I know, I’m just no fun! 🙂 ) I still think that most of the job to “comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable” falls on us in the chairs, not just Luke, especially since I can sense his desire to make sure that the message he delivers comes from God, and that he wants to deliver a Spirit-empowered message as much as we want to hear one. ( It’s so WAY not an easy task, which is why James 3:1 tells us that most of us shouldn’t be teachers.)
Still, as Luke pointed out, there are emotions involved and we need to deal with the reality of both the content of the sermon and the emotions that came from hearing it. And while what we feel doesn’t always “line up with the facts”, I hold (and I’m certain the five sisters, three daughters, one wife, and a great mom, would claim as well) that healthy communication deals with both. Healthy communication never denies emotion: it gives freedom to release it for it’s God-ordained purpose. Logic isn’t powerful enough to change emotion directly which a good thing, since it made no sense for Jesus to love us and die for us. In the same way, you will never win an argument with your wife by telling her she shouldn’t feel a particular emotion because what she feels “isn’t true”. (Trust me on this: I speak from decades of extensive
failureresearch on this topic! If you’re not sure, ask her.)Instead, we should take the approach that David uses all over the Psalms (eg I’ll randomly pick Psalm 55): allow the freedom to feel(v. 2), label the feelings (v. 5), ask questions to understand(v. 2), zoom out to include God in the bigger picture(v. 19), and then see how things change (v. 22). Doing that successfully takes time but Luke, I think this blogsite is an excellent place to see that happen — if we’re all willing to risk being open and patient! (I know… back to that pesky “risk” stuff again…)
oops
I just wrote a huge response to line by line items in this blog post. and then I lost it. and I’m thankful because I think the Lord was keeping me from spending time on something that He’s already given me peace on. Thank you Jesus!
That being said… having read this once more, I’m 100% quite certain that my original statement that there was some fundamental misunderstandings stands to be true. And by saying that, I am neither disregarding anyone’s feelings or saying they don’t matter. But the truth of the matter is that so many assumptions and logical fallacies and misunderstandings and further fruitless opinions have been perpetuated here that I’m thankful that God can redeem blogs for His glory in multiple other ways. Praise Him for that!
Hope you all are having a great weekend! I’m enjoying the rain!
If the Lord “was keeping you from spending time on something he has given ” you peace on in the first place, why were you even going line by line at all? Or even commenting … I may be wrong, but that seems like you AREN’T at peace at all here. Sounds more like you are pretty upset and still can’t even admit that. Odd, considering you gave a perfectly God sent message to your members of your church, and if I was just hanging out there that Sunday and don’t really count, that God didn’t mean for me to hear that message, …then I would think all is just fine! You reassured me that I misinterpreted how and what you had to say and that I was being emotional, etc, but since you were just doing what God told you to do…then what is still the problem? What WASN’T said that you needed to go line by line on , in your perfect peace….?
I wonder if your blog didn’t get lost because God didn’t want you to go there….wherever you were going. I can’t read God’s mind, but sometimes we conjecture. Don’t we? God wanted me to do this…God told me to do that. I do that all the time too..”I wonder if God didn’t send a sign! ” The problem with that thinking for me, anyway, is that God gets put into a lot of silly skirmishes and blamed for a lot of things we can’t say for certain He would approve of. It makes us really sound self righteous, though. No one can touch me if I am saying what I said or did was from God. yeah, sure…….
Of the 100% certainty that there were misunderstandings, there was 0 effort to ask even once WHAT I really misunderstood that Sunday. You haven’t asked one single question to really understand what was going on. You are the Pastor. That is a simple solution to misunderstandings. Not line by line rebuttals …..
Tony, it would be great to see in writing here Luke’s sermon that day again, so I COULD go through it on a different day to see if I was just taking things way too hard and get a chance to see it with fresh eyes, and apologize IF I was way off on my conclusions. That isn’t too emotional or critical a thing to ask for. Its good to see you defend your friends , though, but maybe you need to defend truth, not just a buddy. Even my friends were incredibly merciful and objective with me, not just a lot of yes men and women, even if they agreed with lots of what I had to say. They had a lot of good points both ways. Those are definitely the right kind of friends for me to have and I’m very grateful for them.
Its interesting to see what happens in your church when someone questions and disapproves of what is going on that seems very wrong. Its also interesting that emotions run high not just on my side here and for people with incredibly large vocabularies, all the big words in the world don’t compensate for enough maturity and emotional maturity to ask a few simple questions and really make an attempt to get where I was coming from. This brings up a really good question about who holds power and control in church and how do problems get addressed, if at all???
I apologize for not being much more patient and getting calmed down before addressing some things that seem pretty messed up. Please forgive me, Luke. I also feel that what I was seeing in church should get looked at more closely and ironed out. I also think that you haven’t shown anymore patience or kindness or mercy or grace here, either, and in your position, that should be looked at too. I really had no idea that this would go on with you ducking and running and not at all even discussing anything here to understand the situation and get some clarity. How does that fit in to living for the glory of God?
I don’t think that the “truth of the matter” has even been dealt with here, but I think God will work it all out in His time. Good luck with that!
I want to actually start here for two reasons: (1) I forgive you and I appreciate you recognizing that you were NOT calmed down and also because (2) I want to express myself as humbly and intent on reconciliation and relationships and love and all the other good stuff that comes with the fruits of the Spirit!
And while I am starting here with the purpose of forgiveness and reconciliation, I want to respond to your comments because I THINK you want me to… at least I sense that you are saying, “Interact with me! Ask me questions! Make clarifications!” If you aren’t, then forgive me again!
So please ASSUME graciousness in everything I write here. Please, please, please! Picture me with a soft voice and a smile and a deep concern for truth and love and God’s glory, and not a desire to be “right” or “respected” or anything else that does not and has not reflected who I am in the past and, I pray, does not reflect who I will be in the future!
Hmm. Well, there is always the possibility that some of this is true, but I didn’t really mean to communicate what you just interpreted my last comment to mean! And, I must add, you are somewhat twisting my overall point to further confirm your sneak suspicion that I’ve turned out to be “one of the bad guys” all along. But I’m also going to assume you simply misunderstood me because I didn’t communicate well, so I apologize for that.
My point was that I’m not sure it would have really been all that beneficial to discuss this on the Internet because, from my perspective, you seem really offended. And when one is dealing with someone that is offended and misrepresenting oneself than often it becomes very difficult to properly dialogue and then it takes on the “snow ball” effect and spirals out of control.
And it seems to me that when I read the Bible, the prescribed method of bringing this stuff up would follow the steps of personally confronting someone about those issues, or even more so, that one would be a tad bit more gracious in how they “ask questions.” And even that is confusing because I didn’t see a single question that you asked? Where did you say, “Luke, what did you mean when you said…?”
And why was I going to walkg line by line through yours (and others’) posts? BECAUSE I DISAGREED WITH THE CONCLUSIONS!!!!!! I can have peace with what I had shared and still disagree with your conclusions.
But you are still demonstrating what I’m calling into question with statements like, “I don’t really count,” which is inferring that I actually believe that (which I don’t). Or that I’ve said that my message was “a perfectly God sent message,” which I didn’t. This just seems to be a little immature because nowhere in my previous comments have I stated that! And if that is how you feel I’m coming across, please forgive me! But please, please, please read what I stated, because I made several confessions that I (we) “miscommunicate things,” and that “our methods or approaches can miss it,” and that “it is certainly possible that they (we) are all deceived.” How do you jump from those confessions to what you just said? I mean, quite frankly, you just totally misrepresented what I said, which, as far as I am concerned, boils down to truth and lying. I guess I’m a little confused as to how that matches with anything you are trying to accomplish here, which I’m still confused about. Are you trying to help us become better at communicating what God is leading us to be/do or are you just upset and want to demonstrate how angry you are? Your intentions have been less than clear… so I apologize for not asking sooner what they actually are.
Again, I’m understanding your comment to be extremely sarcastic but I will answer your question. I was not going to say things to clarify my message necessarily. I was going to respond to statements you had made that simply were not true in their representation of me! I would hope that you would correct me and explain yourself if I told people that you were a cheater and stole money from people! Why? Because I would hope to represent who you really are when I talked to you.
And I’m not quite sure where me having peace about what I shared jumps to “perfect peace” because I don’t think I expressed that. But maybe I’m wrong.
Again, I think you are reading into what I actually said. Which is becoming more frustrating as I respond, but I need to be better at being patient, so… perhaps this is going to help!
I believe the Lord could have possibly prevented my post because I was going to simply point out the many logical fallacies you communicated; and not only logical fallacies but the half-truths and misrepresentations. If you actually read comment #18 you’ll note that I said I “think” that God was preventing me from spending time on this topic because I do have peace about what I shared. What I do not have peace about is that I think you are being rude, sarcastic, offended, and posting lies about me. I’m concerned about that because for all of my days in ministry I have never had anyone make these accusations about me, so I’m a little concerned because (a) I want to make sure that I do a better job of communicating and (b) I’m concerned about you as a person because deep bitterness can radically hurt people (Heb. 12:15).
Am I copping out on miscommunicating? Absolutely not. I just would have appreciated you coming and talking to me and asking me questions and being Christlike about it rather than getting on a blog and lying about me. That’s just a bit frustrating. And if you don’t believe you are lying about me, than I 100% believe you that you are not intending to do that. But you are certainly misrepresenting just about everything I have said or commented on!
And I must say that while I believe God is sovereign and in control I am not taking the easy road of suggesting that God deleted my post! That’s just silly. I simply was saying that, though I could have just accidentally deleted my post, I rest in the idea that God has a purpose for everything and that my previous need to “defend” myself against your attack needn’t happen because I had peace about my message and would only enter into a debate with you about semantics.
Okay, please read your initial post (#10) in which you, more or less, flamed me as a person and flamed me as a leader. There was ZERO graciousness in your comment – ZERO. It was full of emotionalism, as you yourself stated (e.g., ” I also know we all get zealous, like me right now, so I am going to try to temper some of that, and “season my words” as a friend put it, so I’m not just beating anyone who I think crosses lines they shouldn’t”).
Because I’m human, it is/was difficult to deal with that. I apologize for not asking you to explain yourself more. I thought you already had and my only response is that what you are expressing as your understanding of what I was sharing is simply not the case! I don’t know how to clarify it anymore! Your opinions just don’t match up with my intentions or what others seem to have gotten from what I shared. So maybe we’re all fools like you seem to be suggesting… or… not.
But your above quote makes little sense to me because I’m not sure whether you want a line by line response or whether you don’t! I’m confused beyond confusion!
Firstly, you have employed a logical fallacy expressed in the form of what is referred to as an ad hominem argument. And contrary to the continual sarcastic remarks that you have made, this is not simply a “big word” that makes someone sound “cool” or “smart” or “godly.” It is simply what it is called and you have done it. You can’t just write off someone’s opinion because they are or aren’t friends with someone. That’s just plain stupid. I wouldn’t do that to your friends (as in Michael’s case) and I would hope you wouldn’t do it to people I know. It’s just immature and silly.
That being said, I didn’t use a sermon manuscript so I can’t really post that. And I apologize for now posting the audio yet because I simply have not been able to get to the TCF sound booth and upload the audio after I get the mp3 ready. I’ve been extremely busy with preparing for this week’s teaching @ the YWAM base. Hopefully you can extend a little of that grace that you have been talking about!
Well, firstly, it is not my church – it’s Jesus church. I try really hard to keep that in mind and I have been preaching that for nearly five years.
And where did you ask questions in your disapproval? Again, this is historical revisionism because your initial “questions” were expressed in the form of a tirade where I “condemn you and force you to jump through seal hoops or act like a trained pony” and where I gave you a “sound emotional beating because you are a lousy and selfish person and don’t act and do what someone else is tell [you] to do.”
You are a lousy and selfish person? Up until the past hour, I have thought you are an incredibly awesome women who I have really enjoyed getting to know. I have sensed that you have been extremely hurt through your past experiences because you have somewhat expressed knowingly and because you exhibit “fruit” of that in how you have interacted with people. But I have considered you to be an extremely awesome and non-selfish person!
Though now I have to be honest and say that I am having a hard time reconciling that with the half-truths, misrepresentations, and sarcasm. It just seems to contradict everything that I’ve previously encountered. But, because I do have a genuine love for you as my sister in Christ and as a person that I have enjoyed getting to know, I’m really assuming that a lot of this is coming as a result of both some misunderstandings and some past hurts.
And contrary to what you have previously expressed, I, in no way, believe this makes your feelings or opinions invalid. I just believe they are somewhat subjective in their outlook.
As stated previously… no worries. And for the record, I wasn’t initially “offended” or even really “upset” with your first post because I actually thought you were somewhat joking (being sarcastic) which is why I just kind of passed over your comment! So, I’m sorry for that!
I am totally and absolutely cool with sitting down and looking at these issues more closely. I would welcome it. Please, come over, sit down, and share your thoughts with myself and the other Pastors. We would welcome that and appreciate that more than you’d know.
If you haven’t sensed patience or kindness or mercy or grace, please forgive me. I was actually trying to express those attributes by not getting into a long drawn out debate with you! That’s probably another great example of my “missing it” to some extent. I thought I was BEING gracious because I didn’t go through the numerous emotional and sarcastic remarks that were simply not true… and for that, I apologize. I understand now that you genuinely desired interaction. Your initial post just didn’t even remotely come close to expressing that, at least to my mind. But I’m not that smart, so it doesn’t surprise me.
Let’s do more than “look” at this though. Pray for me.
Well, first, it would be a misrepresentation of my intention to simply state that I was ducking and running and not discussing. I simply didn’t see any fruit with getting into what was clearly a heated issue with you. You hadn’t followed the biblical model from confrontation and therefore it seemed to me to be somewhat of a waste of time to go through your statements and point out each one of the things that you said that didn’t help build up but only tore down.
Does that fit into glorifying God? I think it can. And it obviously may not. Sometimes it really isn’t worth it to spend numerous hours trying to “debate” someone who appeared to be really upset/angry. It would be much better to sit down in person and talk to them. And I had hoped to see you on Sunday but you weren’t there so I was unable to talk. The Internet and “real life” are two completely different ways in which we communicate. And what is viewed as sarcastic on the Internet may not be in real life because people say things with smiles or frowns or with voice inflections.
So my intention throughout this is to bring glory to God. Have I done that? I don’t know. I hope so, but it’s very likely that I have not. But I can still say with a good conscience that I have not been angry or offended. At the very most I have simply been deeply hurt by the accusations you have made about me because in all my life I have never knowingly manipulated people or been spiritual abusive and to think that someone out there thinks that about me is very hurtful. And I hope and pray that they (you) would come to realize that those statements do not reflect who I am. And I’m confident before the Lord that He knows this. Is it possible that I can come across manipulative or abusive? Absolutely! But I would still venture to guess that someone has simply not understood me and I would try and communicate and make clarifications. In the future I will try and be more discerning as to whether that is what someone who is upset is looking for or not.
Well, I’m still not sure if this is sarcastic or angry or “throwing in the towel” or what. I certainly want to deal with the “truth of the matter” but I think we have two opinions on that, still.
I believe you are viewing this entire discussion and the morning in question through the grid of being hurt and offended and abused and manipulated and you view it in terms of being hurt and offended and abused and manipulated! So maybe we can talk some more and meet somewhere in the middle.
But as I previously said, I am positive that I could have miscommunicated my point. And I’m sure that on some level that happened. But the intention and overall “heart” of what I shared still stands to be something that I believe God was leading me to share. I’m sorry that you can’t connect with this but I still value you as a person and hope you can grow with us and help us become better followers of Jesus as we try and do the same for you…
In Galatians 2:14, Paul confronted Peter in front of everyone. He felt that Peter wasn’t straight forward about the truth of the gospel.
IVORYKMAGUIRE28, are you implying that what you did here on this blog is of the same thing as what Paul did to Peter? Are you now saying that Luke was preaching heresy? That seems really different from what you initially accused him of doing. How does Matt. 18 apply here?
LOL…no, Erin, not hardly! LOL…, except that Paul DID confrontPeter in front of others. How DOES that apply to chapter 18? I think it means that there is a standard being set here, and its this…..confrontation is ok. I am free to “accuse”. If I am judging, then God will help me see what was truth and what wasn’t that day, and what was soooo confusing to my spirit that it left me with a sick feeling. I think its ok to disagree with methods and to question some things that don’t line up. I really haven;t gotten past the accusation though, because people seem more interested in being right or wrong than discussing what was said or happened that seemed so weird. That is interesting. ….The bible says to test spirits …to question. God isnt afraid of that, and if church is God’s,,. not ours, then my accusations and questions are really something we should be able to discuss because God WANTS US TO know the truth.
Did I say that I thought Luke was preaching heresy? Heck, I don’t even know what that word means.
Jesus and Paul certainly taught that confrontation can take place, but Jesus taught in Matthew 18 that we are supposed to approach the person who has sinned against us privately the first time and that only after we have done this with another person should we bring it up in public. The Apostle says that we should confront elders with witnesses.
Just because you don’t know what the word heresy means, doesn’t mean your accusation isn’t serious. You used Galatians 2:14 as support for what you did and you are posting these accusations on the Internet where people from all over the world can read. I can understand why Luke would express the concerns he has had because it seems like he has not had a problem with the questions but with how and what you’ve said.
People often use the excuse of trying to know truth so that they can be rude but I don’t believe Jesus ever gives our search for truth a blank check to be rude or mean or prideful. Maybe no one has meant to come across that way, but imagine that an unbeliever we reading this blog and think about what they would think.
You also seemed to imply that anyone who disagrees with you must be taking Luke’s side. Maybe and maybe not. I don’t know you or Luke and I am not on anyone’s side but It just seems like you are really upset and haven’t been very rational.
I can’t keep up with all these comments!
Anyway, maybe I should blog about this whole situation and give people a chance to voice their “questions,” “confrontations,” or “feelings” in a place that is dedicated for that. I’ll see.
Boy am I glad I don’t run a message board anymore! 🙂
so, Erin, what you are saying, then , is that you can make accusations against me here in “public” , and its ok? Even judgements….matthew 7 talks about that. And since , for the record, you have NO IDEA, what I was even initially troubled about in church that day, ….WHY are you even out here judging it? You have nothing to judge.
and Luke, since you now want to go “public”, …how does this all fit when you really knocked me about that in the first place? I addressed you privately, only to get this public junk going on yet? that just doesn’t make sense at all.
How much more “public” could this actually be? 🙂
Actually, my intention to possibly blog about this situation was to simply address some of the questions and concerns that were raised in general. For instance, questions like, What should I do if I disagree with… or How do we “test” and “question” things in worship gatherings, etc. Since you and Michael seemed to feel that would be such a great thing for people to discuss, maybe it could be done in a way that’s not so judgmental and harsh and emotionally-driven and without all the “facts” being misrepresented! My post wasn’t that clear, so I apologize. I was simply making mention of something that I’d previously stated…
It’d be hard to get any more “public” than this already is.
Erin, I hope unbelievers can skip this one 🙂 Or maybe the Lord could show something about relationships or communication or something… I don’t know. Hadn’t thought of that…
wierd
I agree, Luke, that being judgmental, harsh, and emotionally driven isn’t helping any.