I really enjoy Andrew Faris’ blog contributions at Christians in Context. A couple of the latest are extremely thought-provoking. For instance, Faris provides Toward a Theology of Smoking. I am not a Fundamentalist (in the more radical and negative sense), so I obviously liked this post. And no, I’m not a flaming liberal either, despite what some independent Baptists people might say. Faris brings up some interesting points and then makes some statements that should stimulate someone’s mind at least somewhere!
I have found that smoking a pipe or a cigar or a clove or a hookah pipe seems to prompt guys to share things they normally wouldn’t share and to focus their conversation on things they normally wouldn’t discuss. It is kind of interesting. I’m sure we can get into a huge debate on the regulative principle of worship contrasted with the normative principle of worship, but I’ll let you all hash that one out.
Yeah, I know that R.A. Torrey wouldn’t agree, but Faris has also responded to Torrey too! So put that in your pipe and smoke it!
Luke is a pastor-theologian living in northern California, serving as a co-lead pastor with his life, Dawn, at the Red Bluff Vineyard. Father of five amazing kids, when Luke isn’t hanging with his family, reading or writing theology, he moonlights as a fly fishing guide for Confluence Outfitters. He blogs regularly at LukeGeraty.com and regularly contributes to his YouTube channel.
cigars and bible college go hand in hand like white on rice. if you ever tell my denomination, i’ll slap ya!
🙂
That picture is hilarious! ROTFL! I think it would be a tad legalistic to state that smoking cigars is sinful but I also believe that a lot of the younger generation plays with fire more than they should. Pun intended!
I have only smoked one cigar in my life and that was when my son was born. Beyond that, I can’t say whether it opens evangelistic doors or breaks down cultural walls. I can only comment on how smooth my cigar was!
All things are “permissible” but not all things are beneficial.
Just because something is not “sin” does not mean it is good for you or for the other people within breathing distance.
Is there a reason why one must light up in order to participate in a discussion with others who are smoking? I have been in a bar since becoming a Christian and while there was given the opportunity to witness to some people. However, I wasn’t drinking at the time. I didn’t notice that I had less “believability” because I was drinking soda and not alcohol.
I have noticed that it’s pretty easy to come up with reasons why something we want to do can somehow be used to “glorify God”, when in reality, most of the time it is just an excuse to let our flesh do its thing. I have not noticed anyone coming up with “excuses” for why reading our Bibles more or praying more or fasting or becoming a missionary to a foreign culture would somehow glorify God, because we already know those things can be glorifying to God. Why is it only when we are not too sure about it (perhaps the Holy Spirit cautioning us?) that we suddenly need to come up with excuses and try to convince other people?
So, I take it you didn’t read the two articles.
🙂
It appears you either didn’t read the articles or you misunderstood them. Furthermore, no one in the article and my initial blog stated that someone had to smoke to participate in discussions.
An observation I have is that sometimes it takes a lot of explanation and discussion for people to get past their own presuppositions regarding pretty much everything.
I’m back!
I can attest to the veracity of some of the claims made in this post. Guys simply do not tend to engage in deep, meaningful conversations out of thin air. However, throw a brew, a glass of wine or something to smoke into the mix, and you have a recipe for a deep conversation. I’ve had some of the best conversations with my Christian friends under these circumstances.
Having said that, I would add that there is much to be said for “bearing with the conscience of the weak” and wisely choosing the people with whom you engage in such activities, so as not to become a stumbling block. You have to be careful that something that is not sin (smoking) doesn’t become sinful because of it’s effect on a fellow believer of a different conscience.
Tyler,
Amen. I agree.
One other thing to consider is that historically, I believe, fundamentalists have done a very, very poor job of modeling moderation to people.
Perhaps those who are “weaker” need to see Godly moderation rather than outright abstinence of certain practices. I have only read two or three essays from Christian psychologists who are promoting this idea, but they sure make sense to me.
Both fundamentalists and 1st generation Christians have often reacted against the abuses of past generations (or themselves) and have actually entered into an unhealthy practice of legalism that borders on “works righteousness.” This would not be the case for everyone, but is certainly true of more than a few.
Which is why I believe people need to be smart, led by the Spirit, and aware of cultural context through the eyes of the Bible.
Speaking of which… when you gonna hang out with us? Hookah! 🙂
Luke, I don’t enjoy cigars but I understand what you mean. Christians often “react” rather than “act” and often the reaction is out of fear of the unknown.
I still do not enjoy cigars. Silly boys!
Which is easier to do: abstain when everyone around you is partaking (and many of them to their own detriment)? or to do what everyone else is doing, because everyone else is doing it?
Because alcohol and cigarettes are legal narcotics, as opposed to, for example, heroin or marijuana, does not mean they are healthy for you or beneficial. If our society should fall so far as to make heroin legal, would you then start shooting up with the heroin addicts, in an attempt to reach them for the gospel?
P.S. I did read the one about the theology of smoking. I didn’t read the other one. I tended to agree with the guy who responded rather vehemently that smoking is bad for you and why on earth would anyone want to do it, for any feeble reason whatsoever. After watching your loved ones die of cancer from smoking cigarettes, it’s REALLY hard to imagine any benefit from cancer sticks, cancer chew, or cancer pipes.
I’m thinking none of the rest of you have experienced this, so you are thinking smoking is a friendly, harmless activity, sort of like playing Catan or bowling.
To respond in as nice of a way as possible…
(1) No one has stated that smoking or drinking need be done by everyone. In fact, personal convictions are respected and encouraged! It would be a straw man argument (and semi ad hominem) to state otherwise. It actually appears to be the exact opposite in this case (which is surprising!).
(2) Whether something is difficult to abstain from (or not) really seems to have zero bearing whether it is “right” or “wrong.” It is absolutely easy for me to abstain from homosexuality, so should I now partake of that lifestyle because it would be rather difficult for me to do so? Apply the same logic and approach to pragmatic issues and one can find themself in some very difficult and unbiblical practices!
(3) Comparing the casual and once-in-awhile cigar to heroin addiction is silly because it is apples to oranges. Furthermore, it clearly misses the point of Faris’ original article and most of what those within the “emerging church” are saying regarding contextualization and culture. Maybe it is a guy thing. Maybe not. You said you witnessed to people in a bar and you didn’t drink. Great! Out of curiousity, did you lead any of them to the Lord when you were there?
(4) Again, smoking a random cigar on a non-regular basis is radically different from having an addiction to cigarettes. I am living proof of that. I can name many, many others who also would fall into that category. It is a false dichotomy to equate smoking a cigar to addiction, just as the comparison of drinking a glass of wine is not the same as being an alchoholic. Remember, Faris was not really talking about cigarettes!
(5) I have seen two people die of cancer. It was not a pretty sight. None of them smoked cigars randomly; rather, they smoked cigarettes their whole lives (one did so since they were from the age of 9). To compare that to Catan of bowling is just silly. I just bowled today and I also played Catan and I’d never compare those two activities to being addicted to cigarettes (or heroin).
(6) Again, personal convictions are fine. Broad sweeping statements that I find to be neither logical or biblical are hard for me to swollow… but I’m open!
🙂
My perception of this entire argument is that, since smoking isn’t a sin, Christians should pursue it as a ministry opportunity by participating in it on an occasional basis. Therefore, it would logically ensue that, if heroin were to become legalized (and therefore not sinful, because it isn’t illegal), then one could (following this line of logic) occasionally shoot up with the heroin addicts in order to use it as a ministry opportunity.
My point is that, just because something is not specifically a sin does not mean it is somehow beneficial or wise to do. Most sane Christians would obviously agree that shooting up heroin is completely stupid, legal or not. Most Christians would consider bowling or a game of Catan as a safe and reasonable opportunity to build relationships for ministry purposes, and neither is likely to be harmful (unless you drop the bowling ball on your foot or something).
This fellow, on the other hand, is saying that smoking cancer-causing substances is on the same level as Catan or bowling (a harmless, fun activity). I disagree. There are numerous medical studies confirming the dangers of tobacco consumption. Back in the 50’s, before people realized the dangers of tobacco and alcohol, it was commonly considered “hip” to smoke and drink in a social setting, as a way of building relationships. That was a long time ago. Now that we know better, wouldn’t it make more sense for us to find less physically harmful ways of building relationships with people?
What I am NOT saying:
I am NOT saying we should ever condemn someone for smoking. Addictions are addictions. If we want to be helpful, we can pray for them and support them if they wish to stop. If they only talk to other people when they are smoking, then by all means go out and enjoy their second hand smoke as you talk with them. I do not understand why you would need to also be smoking in order to have a conversation with them.
I am also NOT saying you should never go into an environment where smoking or drinking are happening, etc. Or, for that matter, where heroin ingestion is happening. After all, it tends to work better to reach non-Christians if you actually go where there are some non-Christians to be reached. However, one of the things most non-Christians (that I know, anyway) seem to believe about Christians is that we don’t know how to “have fun”. Since I don’t happen to believe getting drunk or developing cancer are “fun” activities, I think it is more productive to invite them to join in other fun activities that are NOT physically harmful (such as Catan or bowling). It can be an effective witness to show it is possible to enjoy life without being drunk or high. (There are a lot of people who don’t know that is possible!)
As to the difficulty of abstaining, that was in response to the implication that it is “weaker” to choose to abstain from harmful substances and activities…and somehow “stronger” to go along with what everyone else is doing, but call it “ministry” while doing so.
I’m not sure why it matters if the people accepted Christ when I was witnessing to them in a bar. We all know that some sow and some reap. For me, that was a sowing opportunity. I vastly prefer never to go into bars, even for a meal. In that case, however, a non-Christian family member was staying with us and wanted to check out the bar life in WI before returning home. Because she wasn’t too sure about this “born again” biz and because it seemed important to her, I agreed to take her out to a bar. A couple of guys asked us to dance and offered to buy us drinks. She danced and drank. I explained to the fellow who asked me that I was married, so would dance at an appropriate distance (so as not to cause my husband concern, even though he wasn’t there) and I would be happy to accept a soda, if he still wanted to buy me something. They joined us at our table and while my guest had fun with the other fellow, the one who was with me sat and just talked. I told him I was a Christian and we talked at length about the gospel. He wasn’t sure about making a decision right away, but I have him a tract (yes, the dreaded tracts!) for him to read later. It was a good one and seemed to fit where he was at in his life. He put it in his pocket and said he would read it later. We chatted some more and then his friends wanted to go to another bar. The last thing he did before he walked out the door was pat his pocket, where the tract was, and tell me he was going to read it later. His expression was sincere, and he had a look on his face that gave me the impression he was genuinely touched by the fact that I had cared enough about a complete stranger to tell him about this grand opportunity to have a new life. I never saw him again, but I pray for him when he comes to mind and I believe God set that whole thing up for his own purposes.
On my own, I would not have gone to a bar. I’d already been there, done that lifestyle, and had no intention of returning to it. However, that seemed to be the appropriate (Spirit-led?) thing to do in that situation, and I feel God used it. I have no plans to start hanging out in bars, hoping for a repeat opportunity, however, and if I did, I wouldn’t be drinking. Being anything less than 100% sober just does not appeal to me. By the same definition, if I was hanging out with someone who was smoking cigarettes, I would first opt for a nice open-air environment (because I’m somewhat allergic to cigarette smoke), if at all possible, and then I would continue to enjoy their company while choosing to NOT light up with them. I would not be disapproving and cranky, because that wouldn’t help anything, but I would also give them a polite “no, thank you” if they were to offer me one. In my experience, it is more important to just be there, be willing to listen and talk about what they are interested in, and be NON-condemning in attitude and behavior…and whether you personally are smoking or drinking is completely irrelevant.
Okay, I found the other article you were referring to, and I guess I tend to agree with RA Torrey more than your pal. Also, since you asked me, I would ask your pal: Did anyone accept Christ as a direct result of smoking cigarettes with him? Would they have accepted Christ anyway if he had just stood around chatting while they smoked?
NorthwoodsWorship, are you saying the brew or the smoke *produced* the conversation? I’ve gotten into deep conversations around a campfire with and without cigars: smoking didn’t produce depth, it was the relaxed time to talk. I think Timbreldancer nailed it: smoking or drinking is not some kind of “conversational magic”. Besides, even if the results were good, it’s not always true that “a good result comes only from good causes” (Luke, would this be a variant of cum hoc or post hoc?). From my past, I recall great deep conversations with my wife, laying in bed after sex. Does this mean that I, now as a single person, should consider sex with any woman “healthy” because it can produce deep, meaningful conversations? In other words, if smoking, drinking, and sex can each produce similar positive results, should we accept “Godly moderation” for all three because of the results? Even at my weakest moments, I’d have to say no. And Luke, claiming the comparison of the casual cigar to heroin addiction is apples-to-oranges still begs the question of the validity of the act: infrequent sin is still sin, if the act is sinful.
So, for me, that brings us back to the real question of what is sinful. We’ve been dancing around the matter; so I’d like to toss out five questions, to see if anyone else asks the same questions to determine if (fill in the blank) is sinful:
(1) Is it forbidden by law or by Scripture? Unrestricted sex is in Lev 18; killing random people is by both.
(2) Is it immoral? Eph 5:5 in the NIV includes more than just sexual immorality, and the CEV puts it as “Being greedy, indecent, or immoral is just another way of worshiping idols.”
(3) Is it inappropriate? Public nudity is not forbidden by scripture but, since the Garden, it is always used as an example of something to avoid, (as “in nakedness and dire poverty”). Walking down the street is appropriate; ignoring a bleeding person on that street is not (Luke 10:25-37)
(4) Does it draw us away from God? Prov 30:7-9 suggests that even good things can become sinful.
(5) Does it draw a fellow believer away from Christ? 1 Cor 8:9 says we owe loving submission to each other.
If is passes all five, I’d say that it’s permissible… but still may not be good for us (1 Cor 10:23) — Torrey and TimbrelDancer main point. In this discussion, it’s easy to confuse “significantly increases my health risks” with “may be fatal”. At 25, Faris’ cigars — along with the lead he’s been exposed to — are health risks with results most likely seen 40 years from now, rather than now. Any kind of smoking includes doses of carbon monoxide — which no one disputes — which kills measurable numbers of brain cells with each exposure. Since I’m a little short on those puppies myself, I view the loss of significant numbers of them as a “health risk”, even though I’m not likely to die from the couple dozen cigars I’ve smoked in my life. Significant increase? Using the medical definition of the term, yes. Major risk? Probably not.
Since, using my 5 questions, I’d say that smoking is not sinful, I would agree that — other than the issue of addiction — this is more an issue of healthy living. If people are not addicted, and are willing to take the risks, and are not affecting others struggling with the issue, I think they have the right to decide if this is the best choice for them. Even Torrey never claims that smokers are not Christians, rather he views this as an issue of physical and spiritual health. I don’t see condemnation here (I automatically sit in the smoking section if I am with a smoker), but rather concern for making our “lives count to the uttermost for Him”. So, could we rephrase the question to say “Can smoking help our lives really count for God?” Can it?
So, back to my question. How do you determine if an action/thought/intent is sinful?
I enjoy a beer to the glory of God. Not sure if that helps.
i have no intention of smoking but i don’t consider people who smoke to be any worse than anyone else. it’s silly how we christians make certain things into worse “sins” than other sins. i’ve seen christians treat homosexuals poorly because it is a “horrible sin” and then gossip about someone in their church. why is that?
i don’t drink beer either, but i can’t say that i think it is a sin because the bible doesn’t say it is. the bible actually encourages the drinking of wine.
In no way am I implying that smoking “creates” conversation. However, as a 24 year old male, I will say that many guys in my peer group tend to come together around a group activity such as smoking a cigar. This can be one of the few activites that Christians in a small town will partake in to create a social environment where meaningful conversation and fellowship will occur. If the means is sinful, then obviously it cannot be justified by the end. However, since we have established that smoking is not inherently sinful, why then should it not be used by Christians in good conscience to facilitate a good thing such as fellowship? Nobody would make the argument that Christians should not meet at McDonald’s for lunch to discuss the Bible, though medically speaking fast food is also a “significant health risk.” What is the end result, then? In my opinion, neither scripturally nor logically can the case be made that Christians should never smoke. I do believe that smoking can be very sinful if it even approaches addiction, or if it is done often enough to become a major health concern. However, I think the main thrust of this article is to call into question the negative stigma that has long surrounded smoking. The bottom line is, many traditionally-leaning Christians have regarded smoking as a sin, and I don’t believe there is a scriptural case to support this.
Northwoodsworship, thanks for clarifying my misunderstanding about what you meant. I definitely agree to McDonald’s being a “significant health risk” (not to mention tough on the digestion). I’m part of a lunch group that meets weekly, so the fact that McGrub is not my best choice hits me dead-on. As a group, we’ve been talking about trying to make healthier choices for our fellowship time, sort of along the same lines as the discussion happening here. And I agree you that, if the event isn’t sinful, it should be used to make our lives count for God by connecting with others.
Anyway, back to your comment, which started me wondering. If smoking, drinking, and eating are events that “create a social environment where meaningful conversation and fellowship will occur”, what else works? Are there other opportunities that fit naturally into our culture that provide the same opportunity to connect at a deeper level without the side effects?
In other words, (sorry for the puns!) what do you see as other “super-sized”, “smoking hot” opportunities to connect with your world?
It comes down to purposely finding something in common with the unbeliever.
I think discussing TV shows with non-Christians is a good way to witness. (Luke- don’t start!). A non-Christian who loves “Lost” can talk for hours with you, and you can interject things in the conversation from a Christian perspective while not “preaching” to them.
Another one would be movies. Some movies (like the new movie “Knowing”) are another great thing to get conversations going.
The other point I have to make is: I think that Luke is not calling us to “drag” someone into an addiction so that we both have something in common. I think he is saying that if we do have something in common with another person, whether it be an occasional clove/cigar, a movie, or Catan, we should use it as a witnessing tool to help us bond with a non-Christian and make the atmosphere more comfortable for them to share.
I’m just saying… Zero tolorance policies are pretty ridiculous and don’t let you think rationally about each situation. (For example, a teenager bringing a switchblade to school is NOT the same as a 5 year old bringing a plastic butter knife to cut his sandwich. But zero tolorance says it’s the same.) With smoking and drinking, I don’t see a zero tolorance policy working either. It takes basic common sense to understand the difference between an addiction and the occasional partaking.
I’m sure that everyone can have a different opinion on this subject, but I had to give mine! 🙂
For anyone interested: the latest Leadership Journal has an article regarding drinking to the glory of God (ha ha) – http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/buildingleaders/ministrystaff/troublebrewing.html
It’s pretty interesting. I like Driscoll.